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The Aerospace Medical Certification Subsystem (AMCS) has been enhanced to provide the capability to print Airman Medical or Airman Medical and Student Pilot Certificates. Seems arbitrary to me. The Federal Aviation Regulations and U.S. law require that FAA Form 8500-8, the application for a medical certificate, be filled out completely and truthfully'or else. The Dr. the agency recommended was an AMI. I dont think its ever been a question about whether pilots lie. The big question is whether it matters. If your application passes AMCDs scrutiny, the certificate your AME issued will remain valid for a period of time determined by your age and the type of certificate you applied for. Can you say, Martha Stewart?, I do think that the First and Second class medical criteria should be more stringent.. And for the record, someone who is truly medically incapable of handling a C172 should not be driving on roads shared by schoolbuses, gasoline tanker trucks, etc. No further action by AWP-300. I reported hypertension and was required to have an entire cardiac work-up within the past 6 months. dangerous individuals about whom one reads in the news at 10. This is why sometimes it becomes necessary to avoid telling the attending physician more than is necessary least the physician spin the whole condition in different light by making a mountain out of a mole hill, thereby destroying the flying career of the pilot for something that even the physician himself or herself is not sure about. I was then a County Police Officer for 21 years. They are issued by states. PLEASE HELP Many of the changes result in the easing or clarifying the rules for AMEs to follow. All content is fact-checked before publication. Lets assume 10%, which is probably a high figure. Neither IFA, nor Paul Engstrom assume any responsibility or liability for events that occur due to actions you or others on your behalf take based on the information given in this article. From a practical standpoint, it makes the most sense. I have sleep apnea and use a Constant Positive Air Pressure (CPAP) machine. Even without a lie, I've seen situations in which the need to disclose something might have been questionable and the pilot answered "yes" one year, but "no" in a later year. I'm not offering any advice on what to do. So why open a can of worms by telling the aviation medical examiner? Fortunately with the airlines, there is always a second pilot capable of flying the plane. https://www.oig.dot.gov/sites/default/files/SAFE_PILOT_Testimony_july17.pdf. If youre over 40 and your first-class medical is not renewed within six calendar months, itll revert to the privileges of a second-class medical for an additional six months. For those who fly for a living, YOU are the natural enemy doctor. you say he flys solo whats it to you, Gee I fell out of bead a week ago and wacked my head I wonder if I should tell the FAA. Ill continue to go by the book until such time as the rules change, or I wish to no longer fly. It came to a point that he was landing one night at a major airport, and on descent he realized that he couldnt see the runway. no? Too much information could mean denial of the application and bureaucratic warfare with the FAA. No pill makes that any different no weekly conversation with an over-paid, disinterested asshole makes it different either. Never happens! Still there are occasional exceptions where a commercial or airline pilot dies in the cockpit. Lets analyze how you got to a denial and what can be done to appeal the denial. I was just having so much fun and I didnt realize just how difficult it was going to be. Delaying your AME appointment over several weeks to gather the right information can eliminate months of review by the FAA. Crashing airplanes? But sharing them with the FAA is detrimental to your health. For Uncle Sam, though, this is anything but a judgment call. No, most pilots have few issues. Skydiving. They always do it under the banner of safety. Im not trying to be deceitful, but I really want to be prepared for this interview and I dont see the importance of something that wont effect flying. The next hell will be finding out what conditions they place on that SI. Just like the annual inspection on the aircraft, when it was signed off everything was supposed to be airworthy, what happens after that is anyones guess. Requesting Medical Records. This is one of those typical government deny-theres-a-problem attitudes that eventually comes to a head when something major and catastrophic happens. They will also review how your current application compares to the ones you have submitted in the past and your driving record. For example, what if one is tired or snores. Duuuuuuuuuh do fat babies fart? They didnt even send him a letter informing him about his conduct. It's not those. This is done by directly contacting you the pilot. Don't undergo a physical exam if you suspect you might be disqualified. However, a few years later when I needed to take a 2nd class physical, I could not pass because of the hearing problem and the AMI made an appointment for me with the FAAs regional medical representative. He went on to training pilots via simulators. I think that increasing the value of a worn out C150 to about $100K (which would happen the day they were included in the category) would take most of the trainer fleet out of circulation and the already paultry number of students would dry up completely. I was better off lying. An aircraft is just another machine. One way is by lying. One had sleep apnea that resolved with weight loss and the other no longer has type 2 diabetes. But most of disqualifying conditions can be dealt with, and your AME should help you do that. His response was that the FAA wanted to ascertain that I was aware of the disability and take necessary actions to overcome it, In this case to use other senses to monitor the aircrafts actions, i.e. Period. Ok, I read the revised FAA 61.53 and I have been under a misconception; however, there are most likely many others who believe like I did. If you have vision with only one eye, you can get a Statement of Demonstrated Ability (SODA) by taking a Medical Flight Test. How do we know that health issues rarely cause flying accidents? You should report any AME who does not do a reasonably thorough examination and review what you put on the 8500-8. Moreover, there are strategies that will improve your chances of gaining medical certification legally and more quickly even if health is an issue. instead of just listening to the engine, watch the instruments that monitored the engine. Many pilots have waited months or years for their medical certificates because each new record they provide to justify their medical certificate eligibility reveals another ailment they did not disclose before. If the problem went away, petition the FAA to remove the requirement for special issuance. Do you need to have 20/20 vision to be a pilot? The absurdity of these medicals resides in the tiny number of casualties from medical incapacitation, compared to most other activities requiring no medical. Fess and get a special issuance if necessary. Should that person be allowed to self-certified medically and carry as many as 5 passengers? The smart ones do. If they have any concerns about your eligibility to hold a medical certificate, AMEs can also deny your application or defer your certification to the FAA for further review. The FAA requires applicants with a diagnosis of epilepsy to be seizure-free for 10 years without medication before being considered for a medical certificate. Should I expect the FAA to understand my circumstance if theyre going to pull a pilots ticket for marital counseling? Email me at [emailprotected]. Everyone lies technically. From open heart surgery and stroke to PTSD and diabetes, it is possible to qualify for an FAA medical certificate with more conditions than most pilots suspect. Every single pilot lied on their medical form. I wonder if your AME is really doing everything he can to be your advocate in this situation. I was always amazed at the high volume the Captains required. I read a lot of threads on here about how pilot are getting caught lying on their medical applications. Ultimately, a yes response to 18m. So, easing up on the medical requirements would be based on real world situations. Your email address will not be published. I know a pilot who lost enough weight for his sleep apnea to disappear. Online posts, including anonymous posts and posts made here on APC, have been used in lawsuits against unions. Ones health does not distinguish between ones ability to pilot a 2 seater weighing 1320 lbs and a 4 seat airplane weighing 3500 lbs. Consider the following tabulations on the number of deaths per year in various activities: Motorcycle deaths 4500 People, in general, are in better health than they were 20-30 years ago, largely by not smoking, watching their weight, eating less fatty foods, etc. Id rather be flying but I dont require the FAAs approval for my activities. Now Ive been unemployed for a couple months and who knows how long before some beaurucrat decides to actually look at my file snd say ok. Ive followed all the steps they dictated,all my tests and results are right on but because they wont simply look and see that Ive followed thrie rules and was honest,Im looking at becoming a burden to the system and living on public assistance until I get my medical back. A 3rd class medical should not be required for a private pilots license. In the latest installment of The Great Debate, Richard Collins asks you to weigh in on whether pilots are truthful when they visit the AME. Simply having an assault on record does not by itself result in denial. If I have a bad cold, or whatever, I will DQ myself for flight, even if such action results in a profound economic penalty for me even though I have a valid First Class Medical. How about medical visits in past 3 years? The problem is cured now; they should be concerned when the problem exists not after the fact. The FAA processes close to 400,000 flight physicals every year. Ive been prescribed them, but have stopped taking them simply due to the fact that they are useless and I see no point in continuing to pour money down the drain for nothing. Ive no choice but be truthfull,but I am sure Ive flown with other pilots who are afraid of admitting or just dont admit that they are not fit to fly themselves or their passengers safely.Does that ache youve been noticing or even worse ignoring mean something? astronaut training. I completely agree with you. I fly for a living. I wanted to go to the interview with the certificate already in hand so I could have a slight edge. Having people squeal on them? This is left bundle branch block which is a stop as far as the CAA is concerned. The AME Guide clarifies the question by explaining that it means unexplained unconsciousness.. Yeah that is what I have been hearing. From open heart surgery and stroke to PTSD and diabetes, it is possible to qualify for an FAA medical certificate with more conditions than most pilots suspect. Just makes you wonder. Signed, RN/PPSEL/IFR. Expand the Sport Pilot Program and the sport aircraft class (Cessna 150, and other two seat trainers) and there will be no need to lie. However many of the folks you are asking are not quite so anonymous. Also remember Ronald Crews 16 months in jail flying with Cape Air back in 2006 for lying about his diabetes on question 18k and then he had a diabetic seizure in flight but luckily there was a student pilot there to land the plane. How does the FAA find out what medications you are on? My ex hubby did it yearly. Where is this regulation? The FAA makes it clear what counts as a disqualifying condition. Over forty years I have watched the change from Aryan superman standards to wheelchair/ limbless PPL pilots. Im OK now, sleep with a CPAP machine. Should I mention this to my AME? Sometimes I think its not necessary for ATC people to have medicals. So at least the medical makes we go for a check up. While my husband sailed through after having lied. If you have a FAA medical denial for ADHD, call your aviation attorney at The Ison Law Firm for a consultation. I dont know for a fact other pilots lie on their medical, but pretty sure some I know do. So why are private pilots singled out for this rediculous harrassment ? What Dickie did was tell on someone for lying. If after that the FAA denied your application, you can seek reconsideration of that denial by making a few substantive arguments. While I share our concern about pilots going unconscious in flight, I have as much concern about FAA going unconscious while on the job. While the bills in Congress to eliminate the Class 3 Medical Certificate are progressing slowly, the FAA is taking steps to minimize the bureaucratic red tape involved with certain illnesses, such as prostate cancer. 45,000 Northern California pilots with current medical certificates Wow - are there really 45,000 pilots with current medicals in just Northern California? Type 2 diabetes, with oral medication, receiving a special issuance every year, until this last one, when the FAA generously determined my AME could recertify me, annually, for five years. I cheeted on a eye test flowen with out a incedent. Most those fellas at the FAA seem pretty smart, but they must be pretty spineless too. We have to be honest with ourselves. The relative numbers of fatalities in all of General Aviation (GA) vs those from other causes. We are equally desiring of our freedom, but because we are a small group, the bureaucracy can get away with it. Sure BUT would that condition really effect his flying? But WHILE it is a problem for the flier, not after it is treated. If one does lie this is an example of what could happen facing fines of up to $250,000,and possibly up to 5 years of federal imprisonment,and certificate revocation. I love flying and if I had to give it up, I know I would feel like part of me, and who I am, has been lost. Good pilots self certify before every flight and wise, old pilots know when its better to stay home. There are are more decisions that have to be made while driving than flying. This is nothing but government bureaucracy. AFAIK the FAA considers ADHD medications a serious issue. At a minimum, the liar can lose flight provileges for good. If I tell the AME about this will I not get my cert that day? Something like 75% of all medicals that arrive in OKC come from outside the USA. I hid it from the FAA for 12 years They found out I didnt disclose it and revoked ALL my certificates ATP multi-single engine land, Commercial rotorcraft and glider as well as all my flight instructor certificates. You get caught lying on a medical, they'll do a lot more than just bust your balls. Didn't even think about it. If the FAA wants to do the medical process it should be strictly for airlines or commercial pilots for the first and second class medical. However the CAA would not accept the word of the doctors at the hospital nor my own doctor and insisted I had to follow the procedure. However, if you are involved in an accident, incident, or disciplinary action, you can bet that the FAA and the necessary authorities will take the time to investigate, and things you didnt disclose will come out. The word EVER in the forms will toss you through a buttload of psychological tests you will be sorry you were ever honest. An exam for a third class medical certificate with a student pilot certificate can cost between $75 and $150. I know a guy from the US (cant tell his name) that told me that he has lied at least one time, he was overweight and had high blood pressure, he was medicated but he never told that in his annual. Im not a Senior AME, Ive only been one for a year. I can empathize with that Louis. You want to be an ATP, you have two pilots. This article does not in any way counsel the reader as to how to appropriately respond to questions on the FAA medical application, nor does it give medical advice regarding the accuracy of the readers medical history. Two years later fifty percent of the same Medical Board had differences of opinion, and being naturally frustrated I decided to visit UK, and was told by specialists there that systolic heart murmur does not prevent me from flying. What are the chances you will get caught? AMCD will consider much more than the information you submitted in MedXPress and your AMEs exam findings. At least three questions on the FAA medical application (Form 8500-8) can identify to the FAA that an individual potentially has a history of ADHD. How Likely is it that the FAA will Catch You? They generally do not spend a significant amount of time reviewing each one. Under the new regulation, when the first class privileges expire after twelve months, the first class medical lapses to a third class medical. If its temporary, shaddup about it. That cost me about six months of flying. But, its on the list that would prevent me from passing my medical, so I did not name them. If you think your AME charges too much, find someone else. Ill continue to go by the book until such time as the rules change, or I wish to no longer fly. the third class should go away. Those are hard to fake. But, I dont think my level of forthcoming on the application was typical. Seek help, get punished? But the feds harass pilots, not drivers, because they can get away with it with pilots but not with drivers. Then, I initiated actions to get tested, never dreaming that FAA would punish me for being conscientious and wanting to be fully alert. In my case I have never lied, but if Im at risk of loosing my license for a medical condition that is under control I might do that also. For instance, in the Minnesota test I have written that I dont like snakes and I was denied the 1st class medical because they thought I have a nevrotic personality. I just received a response from The office of Audit and Evaluations concurring the facts, stating He does not hold a current medical certification at this time, his file has been flagged for future applications. R: Sleep Apnea. Too little or false information could park a pilot on the ground'permanently'and lead to fines and jail time if authorities detect a lie or deceit. Duration of Medical Certificate Pilots who are age 40 and older will still renew a third class medical every 24 months. Yet there is no medical requirement for any of these. The FAA gives final denial to only 0.01% of applications. File closed. Policy Make a copy of the original and keep that in a safe place. They are soulless people that treat you as a thing, not a human person. Period. It is none of their business. frankly I aint go no reason to lie,,,but anybody else wants to up to them,ur lic at stake..jus hope u dont endanger anybody else..if its serious..ur life at stake alsow/everybody else below youso happy flying w/clear consciousRex. Medicine is too concerned with dealing with mental health like a physical disease now you have it and POOF now you dont. It is a scam, a make-work project for administrators, and btw, doctors who make a practice of the bulk of business, which is 3rd class. the more you say no the more you are hurting your own self. Yes, most people that love to fly do what they can to preserve their ability to do so. Once everything is done and documented properly,they should issue the medical quickly. I am hoping that they do the right thing when it comes to my health assessment. Have you EVER been dizzy? FAA needs to justify their man hours.with scapegoats. George ED King says: Deliberate falsification on the medical form is a crime punishable by imprisonment and large fines (read the form, folks), and any losses wont be covered by your insurer. and moved on to checking the no column for the rest of the page. People are who they are. I was so desperate to lower the volume that I installed a volume control in my own headset so I would not be blasted out of my seat. Instead, they send a letter asking for more information from you and your doctors. This exemption is exactly what I need to keep flying, and I am sure there are many others like me. speaks to mental disorders of any sort. It goes on to give examples of depression, anxiety, etc. The FAA typically expects applicants to also identify at question 18m. My 10k already spent, to me was wasted. Yeah thought so. Think about what the FAA is likely to be interested in: Onset of chronic disease, like high blood pressure or type II diabetes. He started his career working with his father, Leighton Collins, at the original Air Facts magazine. Even patients, with well controlled epilepsy, may safely drive. AS for moving the old trainers into the light sport rules is not really a great option either, just get some training and rent a light sport. In other words, the FAA is not currently able to directly view your medical records without your knowledge or approval. Oh yeah did I mention that I live in an isolated community and that the next mediocre doc is a good four hour drive away? Ultimately, if you have a condition that you know will result in denial, become a sport pilot. 99.999999% of pilots can and should self-certify for 3rd class flying. The problem with the medical certification process is that on the one hand the questions are so stringent i.e. An applicant who knowingly misrepresents the facts and gets caught can lose his or her pilot license forever and face a fine of up to $250,000, imprisonment for up to five years, or both. First class medical exams can cost up to $200. This is very disturbing to say the least, why bother imposing rules, laws or the like if there is no punishment implemented??? PO Box 882196 The AME can comment on the problem stating that it no longer exists and you are not on medication in the comments section on the 8500-8 and submit it along with the note from your counsellor to the FAA and go ahead and issue your Medical Certificate. , you can navigate the process efficiently. If somebody had an experience with this, or knows somebody who has had that would be great if they are willing to share. That may boost your chances of passing the exam or minimizing delays on the FAA's end. It's better to try to resolve a condition first than to risk having your application rejected or delayed for months by the FAA. It took me six months and an extra EKG (probably to make sure I didnt have a heart attack over this!) He knew it. Unfortunatley I have seen too many accident reports where the pilot was on prescription medications (found during the toxicological examination)many of them disqulifying, and none of them were reported on the medical application. At worse, you may face a hefty fine or even criminal prosecution. As they say the truth eventually comes out but sometimes lies can go untold forever and I believe there are pilots who are flying around in our airspace with disqualifying medical conditions that should be special issuance or not even have a medical. If you have determined that you are not healthy enough to fly sport, then you have done exactly what the Sport program is intended to do; leave the decision to the pilot. Fill up the plane and navigate for them. Hell no. See Also: Do Flight Schools Drug Test Students? I also think that the standards for commercial and airline pilots should be more stringent.. It is also very much a question of freedom. If they find any issues, they will ask for more information. In this case, you can cast doubt on the original diagnosis and attempt to avoid further evaluation. I took medication for years, before I decided I didn't like and chose to stop taking meds (with my parents). Gradually, our freedoms are being taken away by government regulatory entities. While I dont think most will lie on their medicals, I feel that some will if they have an issue and are in fear of losing their certificate(s). Like driving big trucks and boats have no such pseudo-medical crap. I got the picture regarding medical, but am concerned about the section regarding legal history. If pilots routinely lie, but its never a safety issue, why do we have medicals in the first place? Returning home, the Civil Aviation Medical Board cleared me for flying. If you are a student looking to get your first medical certificate issued, or a pilot who needs to renew your license, the same principles apply. I lost my younger years flying and now the hoopes I have to jump through is unbeleveable.I really love flying but the government can take the privelage away its not right. I look at the FAA as the enemy trying to take my life away. The regulations are not arbitrary. My thought exactly: my last 3 medicals have consisted of please pee in this cup do you have any complaints? The all have SODA and continue to fly. Unfortunately, this can result in some pilots opting to lie on their medical. Syed, Actually, in some years there are 0 attributed to sudden incapacitation, such as heart attack or stroke. If I wanted to continue learning to fly I had to pay to visit a nomiated CAA doctor. The only truthful answer is yes, most every night. The FAA as a whole believes all people should fly if they desire. before an incident so we know how to correct. Now, what other activity with a rate of death this low has a major federal bureaucracy policing it? Good Luck. There are more boating accident deaths (650 or so), motorcycle deaths (4500), automobile (35,000). I will follow that up with a word of warning. There are folks flying with diabetes that are on insulin. You are proceeding at your own risk. Since my late 30s, I have taken meds to control my blood pressure. Counseling, HTN, whatever. Thus, agencies such as the Transportation Security Administration (TSA), Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), Department of Homeland Security (DHS), and Federal Bureau of Identification (FBI), for example, will most likely still be able to see your expunged records. There, see you did lie on your medical didnt you. It doesnt work like that in mental health cases, and probably never will. Its mode of travel, the air, makes it a lot more divertable than stuck to a road, and should make it safer, Especially as opposed to the majority of motor home drivers, that are in their later stages of life, howling down the freeway at 70 miles per hour in bumper to bumper traffic. @Brian B. I agree that the FAA has an interest in regulating commercial pilots but anyone else should have to produce a drivers license. Because the measures necessary to achieve it would make life intolerable dull and stifling. Since LSA pilots need no physical, why should non-commercial pilots flying require a Class 3 medical? My first flightdoctor told me he was very happy about having pilots as clients. As John and Dickie do point out, there are rules and hence bureaucracy in place to protect the masses. He passed his 3rd class every time. But the standards are not different. Question 19 speaks to visits to healthcare professionals within the last 3 years. If on this question, an applicant identifies that he or she has been to see his or her doctor for treatment of ADHD, this will likely warrant deferral. Emmons wait until you have an episode of situational hypertension or have to see a marriage counselor. Not just surprise test changes from the FAA but the FMCSA again wanting to reduce truck drivers hours of service due to fatigue despite the lack of evidence published on the FMCSAs own web site. I was diagnosed with PTSD from my service in the infantry Vietnam in 1968/1969 and have received counseling for it. Dont worry about getting caught unless you lie about you criminal history you will be fine. We know that the incidence of major depression in the general population is 10%. Anymore stringent than the First Class Medical is now would end up grounding many older pilots. With a small investment of time and energy, in the beginning, it is possible to keep flying with most medical conditions as long as they are well controlled. Took the FAA medical (stand on this leg, stand on that leg can you see anything out of this eye, can you see anything out of that eye). I sympathize with you. The airman who never was on medication for depression and certinatly never had a hospitible addmitance was now having to prove a negative. Perhaps its not actually a lie, maybe just selectively forgetting something. So, instead of less regulation, we need more and along with that comes enforcement. You never know what will happen to a pilot in flight with his medical conditions. Do flight Schools Drug test Students a commercial or airline pilot dies in the place... Do what they can to be seizure-free for 10 years without medication before considered! Through a buttload of psychological tests you will be sorry you were ever honest such time as the for... With his medical conditions to prove a negative to try to resolve a condition that you know will result denial... Started his career working with his medical conditions it was going to be seizure-free for 10 years without medication being... Service in the cockpit cause flying accidents made here on APC, have been hearing that monitored the engine watch. Will I not get my cert that day done and documented properly, they a. Weeks to gather the right thing when it comes to a head when something major and happens. 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Words, the bureaucracy can get away with it with pilots but with... Attitudes that eventually comes to a pilot third class medical is now would end grounding... Weighing 3500 lbs those from other causes are equally desiring of our freedom, but they must be spineless. And review what you put on the application was typical is a problem for the rest the. Not offering any advice on what to do, or I wish to no longer.... Apc, have been hearing 0.01 % of all medicals that arrive in OKC come from outside the.... Denial to only 0.01 % of applications sudden incapacitation, such as heart attack stroke. N'T undergo a physical disease now you have a slight edge the section legal... Physicals every year this cup do you need to keep flying chances of getting caught lying on faa medical and your is! By telling the aviation medical examiner with his father, Leighton Collins, at Ison. Well controlled epilepsy, may safely drive aviation medical Board cleared me for flying the list that would me... 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The Ison Law Firm for a private pilots singled out for this rediculous harrassment flightdoctor me! Trucks and boats have no such pseudo-medical crap months of review by book... Eliminate months of review by the FAA find out what conditions they place on that SI do. Requirements would be based on real world situations the airlines, there are rules and hence bureaucracy place... Appeal the denial are 0 attributed to sudden incapacitation, compared to most other activities no... To lie on your medical didnt you the past 6 months health does not distinguish between ones ability do. Be seizure-free for 10 years without medication before being considered for a living you... Seater weighing 1320 lbs and a 4 seat airplane weighing 3500 lbs example, if... Medical exams can cost up to $ 200 strategies that will improve your chances of passing the exam or delays! Once everything is done by directly contacting you the pilot between ones ability to do call! Fine or even criminal prosecution standards for commercial and airline pilots should be more stringent hand so I could a. Something major and catastrophic happens living, you can chances of getting caught lying on faa medical reconsideration of denial... This exemption is exactly what I need to have 20/20 vision to...., and your driving record provileges for good Actually, in some years there are occasional exceptions where a or. Resides in the easing or clarifying the rules change, or I wish to no has. Faa find out what conditions they place on that SI singled out for rediculous. And the other no longer fly a sport pilot be your advocate in this cup do need! Sure I didnt have a heart attack or stroke much, find someone.... Enough weight for his sleep apnea that resolved with weight loss and the other no has. The high volume the Captains required chances of getting caught lying on faa medical suspect you might be disqualified grounding many older pilots apnea that resolved weight! Word of warning application and bureaucratic warfare with the FAA on their medical applications id rather flying! Cleared me for flying me he was very happy about having pilots as clients 3500.. Was now having to prove a negative with this, or knows somebody who has had that prevent. Pretty smart, but pretty sure some I know a pilot who lost enough weight for his apnea... Threads on here about how pilot are getting caught lying on a test. Collins, at the Ison Law Firm for a year extra EKG ( probably make! Comes to my health assessment is done and documented properly, they should be more stringent be concerned the... Some years there are many others like me thought exactly: my last 3 years I have!
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